Analogman King of Tone / Blues Breaker

I’m really interested in that pedal(concept) to try out without waiting 3 years.

Would it be possible to have bluesbrealer style pedal (which it is, just two of them stacked) or is there already some kinde of plugin combination on the platform that gets a similar result?

Circuit Explanation (german)

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Have you tried the DT1 or the Collision Drive? Maybe with one of them (or even both) you can get a similar tone (?)

No, he can’t. I mean, sure there are a ton of ways one can dial in a specific “archetype” of a guitar tone, but the range of settings at which Tube Screamer style pedal (like Collision Drive) will sound similar to the King of Tone is rather slim. They are both soft clippers but Blues Breaker has a different eq curve (in a way that’s gonna be hard to account for with an EQ plugin given that screamers subtract more of the high and low end than BB style pedals) and additional clipping modes.

@spunktsch as you’ve probably noticed LV2 plugins are not exactly abundant, and the answer of the MOD team when it comes to the plugins is often “it’s up to the community”. Your best bet is to ask @brummer who I’m sure already has a bunch of projects in mind and not enough time.

Side note, I grew to dislike many drive pedals in the age of modelers. I still like fuzzes because you can’t get that tone from most amps, but I don’t see that much of a reason to use a drive pedal when you can get varying levels of drive from a simulated amp at the same volume. Why use Zen drive if you can get Dumble emulation (not that you can get either of those on MOD…), why use Blues Breaker if you can use JTM45, etc.

I’m not talking about it to share my preference, but to give you a final tip. Try to find a MOD amp that has a Marshall JTM45 tone stack (if there’s one, and keep your fingers crossed that it’s modeled well), dial in the tone you like, use the EQ to filter out a good bit of low end, and a bit of the high end (with perhaps a mid bump somewhere around 700-1k Hz if you feel like you need more than what the JTM45 emulation is giving you).

EDIT:

I’ve never owned an actual KoT but a faithful copy made by a local boutique builder, was one of my favourite analog drive pedals for the longest time. It made it so effortless to dial in great-sounding, marshall-y, light drive tones when plugged in front of a clean, slightly scooped amp. That said, stacking the same circuit, proved to have a limited utility, even with dip switches inside that change the clipping circuit (I mean, it sounded great but in a “more of the same” kind of way). So if you’ve ever thought about buying KoT, Prince of Tone (or a good copy) may be a better choice. That’s what I’d go for… if not for the fact that my HX Stomp has an excellent emulation of both Prince of Tone and KoT, not to mention two different flavours of Marshall JTM45.

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I honestly don’t know the reason for this statement. We save a list with hundreds of requests (we even upgraded the system to save them a few weeks ago and even that one is already on the hundreds - the other is not lost). Indeed we ask a lot of feedback from the community - that same list comes out of requests mainly from the community - so this statement kind of feels as painting a really dark picture when in fact it is not.
MOD is a platform open to plugins from other developers, so if something exists and a user finds it it may make our work easier to port rather than building from scratch. Indeed LV2 is limited (as any other platform), but it is what is currently supported. So it is also Max Gen.
I feel that this “random throwing up numbers” tends to always be used in such a negative way and also mostly completely lacks foundations and sources.

What I did here was merely a suggestion. Things can’t be developed, ported, or even found from one day to the other, so if @spunktsch didn’t know these plugins (or any other user) maybe he could find there the answer for his needs. Even if it is a temporary solution.
After all, I believe that it is a way healthier approach to everything in life to search for solutions and not for problems. Even if the solution is a bit more of a nasty fix or a workaround until a better one comes out. That is also a principle for evolution…nothing is perfect.

Anyway, @spunktsch request is mapped and your complaints as well.

On this side note, I personally agree totally with you. I always tend to find bluesy and overdriven tones easier directly from the amps than from whatever pedal that I try to use. Especially in the modelers, I have exactly the same opinion.

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I’ve modelled both of them, The BluesBreaker as the KoT. Personally I like the BluesBreaker more. It may be my model, but the KoT becomes a bit noisy when dial in some highs. But true, I’ve no time nor planes to push them to the MOD. @spunktsch for bluesy sounds you may want to try out the Guvnor:

and the BottleRocket:

beside that there is the HotBox:

Depending on the sound you are after you may need to implement some gain staging.

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I’ve edited the arbitrary, hyperbolized percentage out of my post, cause I agree it was likely too harsh. I stand by the rest of it though.

The bit about a “healthier approach to things in life” feels a bit frustrating and a tad condescending, since MOD is the only piece of gear I’ve ever owned, that caused me to research the web for hours, looking for viable LV2 plugins, and take the time out of my day to email independent devs of quality free amp sims, to ask them if they would be interested in porting their stuff on MOD - which they weren’t.

To put it simply… I did look for solutions. I even proposed some (remember my topic about the amps?) which the dev in your community was actually on board with any happy to help with (@brummer of course)! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand… that topic is pretty much dead ever since I returned my Dwarf to Thomann.

I know you have a lot on your plate concerning the features of the platform but it wouldn’t take much support from the MOD team to nudge that initiative and meaningfully improve the MOD experience for guitar players, by repackaging what’s already available on the platform with the help of an eager dev.

The most frustrating thing is that MOD could become markedly better by curating, streamlining, and polishing what’s already there, than by noting every single little suggestion and adding them to an already giant heap, the size of which probably makes everything I write seem very unfair from the perspective of the MOD team member, who is forced to look at this giant todo list daily. I - and probably every single person who ever held an office job - truly have empathy for you.

Still, though, I’m not a MOD employee or even a dev. I’m just a user. And I didn’t have to do any extracurricular activities with my HX Stomp, I can just be amazed at how well the Fuzz Face in it reacts to my volume knob and that it models the impedance of a real pedal, realistically affecting my tone even if turned off. Sure, it can’t run 18 pitch shifters at a time, but it has lower latency, reliability, and practically zero jank. Whereas when I tried 70% (this time the percentage, while of course subjective, feels adequate) of the drive pedals in MOD I thought, “why is this even here”? Not to mention the samey reverbs, some disappointing amps, etc.

I also feel like there’s a big misconception about the MOD team cultivated on this forum. MOD is not some sort of a grassroots movement. It’s a business just like Line 6, Neural DSP, etc. There’s this open-source aspect to the platform sure, but it kinda-sorta looks like some devs who are happy to pour their passion and time into creating open-source plugins for Linux, are a bit less happy porting them to a box that’s essentially a pay-wall. And speaking of pay-walls, I don’t see any paid plugins in my HX Stomp… so it could be argued that the “community-driven” MOD has a less “community-friendly” business model, than those other companies who make no “community-centered” claims about their products. You both sell a box, but only you sell software in the plugin store.

I won’t make a habit out of writing posts like this. I’m already less-than-thrilled about writing this one, because, usually, when I don’t have anything nice to say I don’t say anything at all. That’s probably why I’m not making a new topic and posting this here.

However, the Dwarf, on the surface, looked like the last box that I’d ever have to buy, but in practice proved to be a slight to major disappointment in most aspects relevant to me as a user. I still see the potential of the unit and I truly wish you well. I very much hope that in like 2-3 years the Dwarf will become that last box that I will ever need to buy but… in case you didn’t notice, Line 6 and Neural aren’t exactly asleep at the wheel. Hell, even NUX recently released a pretty kickass update to their pretty-great-sounding-for-the-money MG-30, that - while far less powerful and flexible - is somehow a more polished product.

Again, the main point to this was stated in the 5th paragraph of this post. Instead of tilting at windmills and pursuing 10,000 different little suggestions and improvements, you can make MOD better by curating, repurposing, and polishing what’s already there, but from what I can see on this forum, it doesn’t seem like you’re interested in that, which is a shame.

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Yes, I remember. The fact that no one is interacting on the thread and the thread is (in your words) “dead” is not really on us to blame. Maybe there was not yet anything valuable to add on that conversation either from our (MOD) side or from any reader. Yet, this is quite far from considering the subject dead or even solved. Everything that is there triggered and keeps triggering a lot of talks and certainly either me or @James (or even all the other guitar players in our team) will allow it to die.
Now, things take time to maturate and take time to implement. You can’t expect us to implement that from one day to the other or even to not consider anyone’s feedback and implement exactly yours. The reason for you to return the device (if I remember well) was exactly your unwillingness to wait and we totally understand and respect that.
Now, everything about that topic is being talked about in-house I would even say on a weekly basis. Now, I admit that is also frustrating for us to not be able to implement that super fast, but those are the cards on our deck at the moment - and that’s why we try to stimulate the community to let us know if we can grab a project that doesn’t have all work to be done (otherwise it will take us much longer). This doesn’t mean that we rely on the community as the only source of plugins.

I actually would consider that all the talk about UI on this thread (that already gave practical fruits) is a sort of consequence/follow-up of that topic but on a broader level. But this is my perspective.

If I remember well this suggestion in that thread was not fully welcomed especially by the developers of the plugins. And, as much as it can hurt us, we can’t completely go over the word and wishes of a developer of a certain plugin. That would be like painting on top of another artist’s paintings and we can’t do that. I think you can understand. It would be a totally different situation if we develop the plugins from scratch, on that I can agree.

I agree with the curation. But I don’t agree that we shouldn’t listen to our users, potential users, or past users (like you). Otherwise, I wouldn’t even spend time answering you on this. We do answer because we care about the community and we believe that by listening we can improve the devices and the platform.

We are actually not forced to do it. Not even daily. We do it to plan and set roadmaps and understand what is being requested. When we have our plate full we can’t really go out and hunt before making the digestion.
Thank you for the empathy, but we (the team) were actually the ones setting up this request list. No one asked it from us. We do it to better understand the needs of our community and the scale of those needs.

I’m happy to know that. Maybe at this stage, the HX is more suitable for you as a user. And I’m honestly happy with it. I believe that more than the tools, what matters is the fun that you have and in this case, the music that you make. If the HX suits both better, I can’t be anything but happy.
Indeed some sections of the plugins need some curation, but that’s again why we need to listen to the community carefully. We can’t simply start removing plugins that we personally don’t like or don’t use while some users actually may do. Before doing such a thing we need to have a way to actually understand what plugins are not needed and users don’t rely on them to any job.

Certainly, but it is also a community. I’m sorry to be direct on this, but it is not up to you to decide how other members of this community look to the community and to the project. It is also not up to me or to any MOD team member. It is up to each individual that is here.

I’m also not sure how many software updates and features implementation after purchasing the HX has. Maybe wait some months or years to revise this statement.
It’s their way to do things and we have ours. You should always go for the one that suits you better and not try to “change” one or the other in order to make it suit your needs better. I guess that MOD actually gives you a bit more room for suggestions than Line 6 (and I also own some Line 6 equipment). But I won’t criticize them for that. It’s their choice.
Again, it really seems that you selected the device that suits you better for now. The only thing that we can do is keep improving the MOD devices and platform and hope to meet you and your needs somewhere in the future. For now, we need to admit that we don’t fulfill them.

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@jon Well, Line6 actually has a very well organized, and effective (largely responsible for the additions of high-demand features to the Helix line of products, like the studio-quality reverbs, two additional blocks on HX stomp, etc.) channel for community suggestions which you may want to look into: line6.ideascale.com.

I’ve written quite a bit more and while it was largely objective, and most of it relevant… it had mean undertones which, are not necessary. I won’t waste anymore of your or my time (I’d actually like to delete my forum account but I can’t find the option to do so).

I just wish the MOD team good luck (genuinely, no mean undertones).

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@spunktsch I’ve published a BluesBoard (CollisonDrive + SuperSonic + ModernCab * Fomp Reverb) some time ago, didn’t know if you’ve see/tried that:

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@Matt did you just write that whole rant again you just did last month (in another thread)?

Dit you just lure @jon into defending his colleagues and himself AGAIN?

When I read your first posts here, I thought you were one of the good guys but why do you have to go nagging all over again with the same litany?

@brummer that blues board sounds sweet, thanks!

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Yeah, there’s no point. You’re right. The “litany” was meant to be useful but I could’ve worded it differently. Besides, I definitely have more important things to do, and the MOD team probably even more so.

To end my writing on this forum on a useful note: unless you have a high-end pickup in your acoustic, consider adding an IR loader at beginning of the acoustic path in your acoustic + vocal board (the one you posted on the forum the other day). You can get free acoustic IRs here: acousticir.free.fr or good commercial ones here: www.3sigmaaudio.com. For acoustic guitars with just a basic piezo pickup, this can vastly improve the live and direct recording tone. Enjoy.

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This post is for all users, regardless of one’s opinion. Fell free to comment but, if at all possible, please present solid counterpoints to what’s stated here.

Firstly, please allow the librarian/data scientist in me speak for a while.

Line6 is owned by Yamaha since 2013. The parent company employs about 20K people plus around 6-7K temporary workers annually. It’s annual revenue from all divisions (including medical and automotive) tops 3.5B USD.

Yamaha started as a piano company in 1887, but switched to propellers and engines due to having its factories confiscated by the Japanese government during both World Wars. But, if you look at their logo, it’s 3 tuning forks. In its core, it’s a music company. However, in spite of brilliant and unique music instruments developed over the years (think of the DX7 and the revolution it brought about), for whatever reason they were not very good with marketing, which likely stems from the Japanese ethos, whereby advertising and marketing should not replace the quality of what you produce and sell. They have placed more effort into creating great instruments than in marketing them.

As a result, they’ve produced some incredibly powerful pieces of gear without ever reaping the money they could, because their competitors were more “established” in the market. The VR guitar amps immediately come to mind: they were immensely better than the Roland Jazz Chorus, but never really “caught on”. (Mind you, the JC120 is not even real stereo: when you use the chorus, it comes out of one speaker only. The VR4000 instead was full stereo all the time.) To this day I use the MagicStomp and the DG Stomp boxes, both from the early 2000s and still incredibly powerful.

Now, here’s the data scientist speaking: the MagicStomps sold for 300 USD in 2002, which corrected for inflation means about 470 USD. Almost the price of the Dwarf.

(Whereas the sound of the MagicStomp – to my ears – has the most delicious, foamy, creamy, luscious chorus and delay ever created, the last firmware update was more than 10 years ago. They tend to get very hot and LCD displays always fail after a number of years. Capacitors leak over time. And most of us have one or two spare units at home in case one fails.)

The Line6 Helix line is a great breed of effects processors. They have had an update in early April 2021, then a bugfix two weeks later, and had a new update in February.

Now, the Helix is a more mature and developed product, no question about it. It’s ready for prime time. It’s solid and dependable. However, it is not what a Line6 product was pre-2013. It is essentially Yamaha knowledge and DSP research into the Line6 brand. Remember the PodXT? And some of the Line6 amps? They were not even close in sound quality to what Helix is today. And that comes form a company with a 3.5B USD revenue muscle. What they can do in terms of resource allocation, personnel, and development – two of Line6 founders were former Oberheim employees – is far beyond what MOD can do.

MOD is a different product, has a different vision, and offers possibilities that others do not – such as adding your own effect to it. That doesn’t translate to “it’s up to the community.” While I agree that the choice of LV2 may be a problem in the long run, consider the following:

a. VST hosts used from the 2000s have ALL gone out of the market, and some of them were deadly expensive – the Receptor could cost about 3500 USD, or about 4650USD in today’s money;

b. Modeling amps can easlily cost 2000 USD and you still have to acquire models/images for your system, other than capturing them yourself from real gear;

c. Every single system has some constraint as to how many effects you can use, what sequence they can be placed in, etc. MOD is limited too, regarding memory and CPU usage.

So, to avoid writing yet another encyclopedia, comparing Line6 to MOD is an exercise in futility. One can have a bitter disappointment with MOD, but there is no cultivated misconception anywhere. It is a paid product that hosts LV2 plugins. It’s not advertised as anything different. There are indeed 300+ plugins available, but when I used the Fractal there were 1000 and only 4 to my liking. You read right, only 4!

MOD employees participate in the forum and indeed most likely have a monstrous to-do list in front of them. They acknowledge the ‘musts’ and ‘shoulds’ all the time and profusely apologise for their shortcomings. They understand what the pressing needs are, but also need to tend to other areas, such as the OS and fulfilling orders.

Please notice that I am NOT defending Mod and am not an employee, but I know one or two things about running a business under a cash crunch. Trust me, it’s hell. And the bloody NXP microcontrollers are still 200% more expensive than before the pandemic, with a 8-month wait list.

Therefore, I hope whoever finds another product that is more suitable than the MOD follow that path and be happy. I may find myself in the future in a position that I will give up my Mod and do the same (though I hope not). But while we’re here, let’s keep a positive outlook and do whatever we can to make the environment better.

I am no programmer and understand absolutely ZERO about modelling an effect. Zero. But with my limited knowledge, I am trying to build a delay with 8 stages like the Yamaha UD Stomp with Max and, if I’m successful, I’ll sure share it with the MOD community. It’s all I can do, not much more.

All the best to everyone here.

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thanks guys for the tips and pointing out whats available. And again thanks to @jon for answering thoroughly (which I think most people on the forum know by now).

This post was mostly meant as a conversation starter and get some knowledge on. Although I agree (again) on some points with @Matt regarding distortion sounds I disagree with his point of view as a product. The DWARF is positioned in the same category as the big players but you can’t compare them without considering the companies market position. @QuestionMarc put it brilliantly - with the data backing it up.

So to get a bit more on topic I’m trying educate myself on the possibilities of sounds that I can get with the DWARF. Sometimes for fun, sometimes for getting a better knowledge of leveraging certain effects and so on. In the end I’m trying to replace my amp (egnater tweaker 40) without losing sound quality.

For the fun stuff I mostly see stuff on youtube that I want to try out without buying extra pedals. Just to see if I like that sound

or

Thanks @brummer for the suggested pedals and the board. Do you have a more detailed description what the do diffently(in eq or frequency) - again just for educational purposes.

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This statement is unrealistic.
Dwarf is a start-up by a manageable number of people who have nowhere near the manpower you cite as an example.

In general, open source projects are rarely comparable to large commercial companies in the mainstream.
I agree with you on some points, but given the circumstances, I think it’s unrealistic to demand faster development-

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This is a major reason I got the dwarf. I really wanted to try out different effects, particularly drives and see what the differences are. Of course, without spending another fortune on pedals, or the hassle of the buying and selling merry-go-round

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@malfunction54 that’s part of my perspective as well.
Getting yourself to into it, digging deeper.
I appreciate the journey just as much as the destination.

What helps: getting rid of some distractions.
Like selling pedals you barely use now:

@spunktsch Funny thing you mention Wampler
I’m actually selling my Wamplers. :smiley:
…While they are still my favorite pedals for drives.
Even selling one strymon (keeping the El Capistan and Bluesky though!)

oh and btw thanks @QuestionMarc good writing, informative and well structured!

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This post makes me feel the crap just spending my money on a Dwarf as a guitar player. Did I just waste 400 bucks??

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Well, I’m sorry for the negative feelings, but your post kinda vindicates the ones I’ve made, because - while that wasn’t my main goal or intention - one of the themes I tried to convey in them is in fact “guitar players beware”.

Anyway, tone and user experience are subjective, so it’s up to you to decide. You may love it! And if you’re going to utilize the added features/flexibility of the unit (complex chains with some unique effects, generators, ability to plug in a midi keyboard, etc.) then it might be just what you need. Also, the Dwarf now has proper IR support and at least a few good amps (Onyx, Supersonic, the MOD version of Guitarix plugin is cut down and not especially user friendly but it can be dialed in to sound decent, haven’t had the chance to test the Fat Frog but it looks promising) so it’s not like you can’t get usable tones out of it. That’s a low bar to clear these days though since it’s not 2004 anymore. A giant percentage of digital solutions (pedals, multi-fx units, VSTs) sound great, with a variable degree of tweaking required (with Dwarf, that would be on the high end of the spectrum in my estimation and I tried pretty much everything out there, at least software-wise).

However, if you’re exclusively a guitar player and you’re not playing a super experimental genre, then I couldn’t in good conscience recommend the Dwarf. I’d much rather choose one of the low to mid-end guitar-fx units available on the market (certainly NUX MG30 cause I tried the NUX stuff, maybe Hotone Ampero, and I may even consider cheaper units). I’m now using an HX Stomp, and from the perspective of a guitar player, it’s so much better, that listing all the reasons why it is so, would - in light of my previous posts - seem like I’m tormenting rather than evaluating. Even though I’d be doing the latter.

I’m just some dude though, and since you already bought the Dwarf I hope it will suit your taste and needs.

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Thank you @spunktsch :slight_smile: I do my best all the time. Sometimes I achieve the goal, others I don’t…next time I will try harder regardless of the previous result!
Actually is even funny that you say this. For the matter of fact, I know that I owe you an answer since quite a while (it’s on my “Missing Aswer” list)…it will come :sweat_smile:

I would say that regarding any purchase that you do that is up to you to understand if it fits your needs and is worth your money and not basing that on what anyone says (being either on the positive side or on the negative). Altough I understand the concern - especially if you are still waiting for it to arrive - I guess that after you receive it you will be the one deciding that.
All good if it doesn’t fit. Some tools are amazing to some people and don’t work at all for others. We are individuals.

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Welcome to the forum, @guitarsandvideogames. It’s a pity you were assigned the Gloomy News Bearing Committee for your reception.

Who better than yourself to judge that?

Try your unit out, see what it does for you, fiddle with it a bit – just don’t enter the arena thinking you’ve lost the game already. I’ve tried some of the amps in the MOD and one of them sounds super sweet to my ears. Since you too have ears, use them and see what they will tell you.

If you gauge what you feel about something by what you read in forums, you’re in a bad place. Take the nicest piece of guitar gear you’ve ever heard about a head straight to their forums. If you collect a dollar for every person who says “I’m deceived”, “this is not what I expected”, “I’ve been misled” or “this sounds like crap”, you’ll have enough money to buy it.

(Tip: try the $4000 Gibson Les Paul Robot)

Not your fault. The thread started with someone asking about a specific effect and then the horsemen of apocalypse broke into our little Fantasia kingdom to remind us mortals that our desires will never ever be fulfilled and that the lovingly Fairy is actually the monster itself.

The MOD started as mostly a guitar pedal. Since there were sequencers in LV2 format, they were added to the product. (But you don’t need to have them, just delete whatever you don’t use.)

Then came the MOD X, with more buttons/encoders and dual screen, which is more of a desktop unit, and is preferred by electronic musicians.

Then came the Dwarf It is more of a hybrid unit, with encoders and buttons AND metal footswitches. It has the footprint of a large stompbox and if you check the videos, most of them are guitar-based.

More importantly, whereas the original MOD is somewhat less powerful and has fewer capabilities, and whereas the OS for each unit differs sightly (mostly due to the hardware employed), all MOD units share the same effects and can do about the same. So, regardless of the “flavour”, you can pretty pull the same sounds from any of them. The only thing is that the Dwarf can be operated with your feet and the X can’t. But lazy people like me who play guitar while seated can use a Mod X like I do, because the extra buttons simplify my life and I don’t have to use my size 48 feet (EU size, it’s 13 US).

Now, here comes the part where I break the bad news to you all: there is not a digital effect, no matter how deadly expensive it might be, that a hardware analog pedal cannot do and sound better. As a matter of fact, I can go to the local electronics store (which has little to offer) and get parts to build a pedal in 2 hours that will sound better than any $100 Neural “archetype” plugin you can think of. As an example, an amp regarded as one of the “best sounding ever”, has about 50 electronic parts in it – including the 4 tubes. The beloved Tube Screamer has one IC – which in itself is 8 transistors, 8 resistors and a diode – and another 25(?) little components, between capacitors and resistors. The IC in question was made by Texas Instruments, not the music company one would think of.

Yet, it is loved, revered, copied ad nauseam, and good luck finding a good emulation of it – even for a shitload of money.

Not to enter the endless “is analog better than digital” discussion here: you can get very decent sound from digital processing units, and the pedal I love the most in the world is DSP-based. The point I would like to make is that we need to also adapt our ears to that. It will sound different than our beloved amp and, as perfect as the “modelling” might be, it will not be the same.

This new trend of pedals that have extreme flexibility for routing and stacking effects – of which the MOD is probably the most flexible – allow you to tinker with your sound in ways that you can always find a spot that, if not as “perfect” as the stompbox you loved, it is quite satisfying and comes with added benefits: a loooper, a sequencer, midi ports, etc etc.

(Even though it was built in the 2000s, the Yamaha Magicstomp does NOT take midi messages!! :face_with_hand_over_mouth:)

Therefore @guitarsandvideogames, it might be the case that the MOD won’t cut it for you, but give it a fair trial and decide for yourself.

Please please please, don’t ever start that one. NUX has a bunch of open-source effects poorly copied and crammed into their hardware. Their delays and choruses make my oscilloscope puke. The worst MOD delay plugin doesn’t quack and squeal like theirs…

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