Midi learn as a toogle

[Aurelien]

Hi there

I am really happy to use the Mod Duo with a external midi controller ( nanoKontrol2). However, I have some issues with “midi learn” . Hoping I am not wrong while using it, considering it as a bug

When I use a button of my controller as a toogle ( switch on, off an effect, or especially
UNDO on the looper ), the midi message is received for both “midi on” AND “midi off” message.

At least, by pressing then releasing my new UNDO button , the UNDO message is sent 2 times.
About switching on and off effect, this is the same, the effect goes ON and OFF again …

Finally I saw an “advanced” option that offers me only a Label. Is there a clue here ? My system is up-to-date.

Thanks Mod Team

[unbracketed]

I’m not familiar with the nanoKontol2, but on their product page there is a link to their control editor software, which might help.

It sounds like the button(s) you are using might be in momentary mode instead of toggle mode like you desire and it looks like the editor gives you the ability to switch the mode

[falkTX]

When a trigger-type parameter is addressed to MIDI CC, any value sent by MIDI will activate the button.
You’re sending the on and off values, each of those acts as a trigger, so in the end the plugin is receiving 2 triggers.

[bleo]

I’m running into this issue myself right now. I’m using a Logidy UMI3 and would like to use its footswitches to toggle pedalboard fx on/off in my Duo. When I step on the UMI3, it sends ccX value 127 and when I let go, it sends ccX value 0. So essentially, any stomping is only momentary. I tried changing the UMI3 to not send value 0 when I release it, but that just resulted in the Mod fx being turned on and never off (sending again did not turn the pedal off). Anyone ideas for a workaround? Perhaps with loopback and a MIDI utility? I looked at the utilities and none jumped out as being able to solve this issue.

[jon]

Have you tried a workaround using the MIDI Event Filter?

[bleo]

Would that be to filter out cc60, value 0? I just tried that and it also didn’t work. But then I noticed something: looks like the virtual MIDI loopback is being merged with the data coming directly from the UMI3. Filtering ALL ccs being sent to the loopback should essentially stop the Mod pedal from turning on/off at all but it doesn’t change the momentary behavior at all (FYI I put the monitor plugin after the event filter to make sure it was filter and it was). I tried a trick previously mentioned here on the forum to go (cc to note)->(note toggle)->(note to cc) and I can see that TRYING to work: first stomp works as momentary and will keep the effect on the entire time the button is pressed, second stomp turns pedal on then immediately off. So that might be a bug in the loopback feature?

I know you guys definitely don’t want to hear any more feature requests as your plates are extremely full, but ideally, the MIDI mapping/learn advanced page for on/off functions should offer latching/momentary options just like the one assigning the Mod device footswitches, since the Mod footswitches are doing the same thing as my UMI3 switches, sending a non-zero value when pressed, sending a 0 value when released.

But as of right now, it seems like loopback might be “broken” for mapping and there may be no workaround.

[jon]

I got quite lost trying to understand the first paragraph and what may be wrong with the Virtual Loopback port. Can you explain that clearer?
What I can tell you about that and its implementation is that it’s literally a virtual replica on what you would get if you connect the MIDI out of the device back to the MIDI in. So, I’m not sure what can be wrong there.

@bleo

I know you guys definitely don’t want to hear any more feature requests

Well, that is part of our job, to listen to the users I will map that

[bleo]

@jon

What I can tell you about that and its implementation is that it’s literally a virtual replica on what you would get if you connect the MIDI out of the device back to the MIDI in. So, I’m not sure what can be wrong there.

Ok I think I misunderstood what loopback is supposed to do. I guess that by design the loopback output port is supposed to merge the data going into it with the data coming into the Mod on any MIDI IN port (serial or USB). If that’s the case, then it does seems like regardless of whatever MIDI plugins I use to try to get an effect to toggle, the Mod will still “hear” the cc60 value 0 coming in via USB and turn the effect off. So your suggestion of an event filter or previous suggestions of cc-to-note to note toggle to note-to-cc won’t actually work with the MIDI learn function.

@jon

Well, that is part of our job, to listen to the users I will map that

You are a true gem. I am perpetually impressed with how much grace and care you offer the users here on the forum and through support tickets!

[bleo]

Well, I got it. There was ONE simple idea that just had to pop into my head: the CC to be learned needs to be different from all the CCs my controller is sending. So I merely had to switch the CC being sent from the note-to-CC plugin to CC67 and then use a different controller to send CC67 when setting up MIDI learn and BAM, it works. Yes, this will be a huge pain to setup for all three switches for every pedalboard and I should probably ditch the Logidy UMI3 and get a MIDIBaby3, but at least there’s finally a workaround for people who have controllers that send momentary CCs!

[jon]

@bleo

Ok I think I misunderstood what loopback is supposed to do. I guess that by design the loopback output port is supposed to merge the data going into it with the data coming into the Mod on any MIDI IN port (serial or USB).

Kind of yes, basically all the MIDI data that you send over that port gets inputted back on the MIDI in section.

@bleo

You are a true gem. I am perpetually impressed with how much grace and care you offer the users here on the forum and through support tickets!

Thanks Anyway, that’s also part of my job - to help MOD users haha
Anyway, our community really helps with this (and trust me, I can say it based on previous work experiences!). Everyone here is super friendly, super excited and curious. Believe me, every single day I learn a lot with all of you guys, including how to use the MOD platform.
Starting from that point everything gets super easy

@bleo

Well, I got it. There was ONE simple idea that just had to pop into my head: the CC to be learned needs to be different from all the CCs my controller is sending. So I merely had to switch the CC being sent from the note-to-CC plugin to CC67 and then use a different controller to send CC67 when setting up MIDI learn and BAM, it works.

Perfect

@bleo

Yes, this will be a huge pain to setup for all three switches for every pedalboard and I should probably ditch the Logidy UMI3 and get a MIDIBaby3, but at least there’s finally a workaround for people who have controllers that send momentary CCs!

Thanks for sharing the solution (see, I just learned something with you haha)

[bleo]

Bumping this again because I do think being able to make momentary CCs toggle fx on/off is an important function and the Mod is still lacking in that department. The (cc to note)->(note toggle)->(note to cc) setup I used above works OK but it’s a huge pain to setup. I recently got that Chocolate MIDI controller and was happy with that for a bit because I could set each button to be a toggle, however, it still ended up not being ideal when changing pedalboards or snapshots because then I was running into situations where the effect it was mapped to was on but the button was toggled off so stomping the first time would do nothing and I would have to press it a second time. This made me realize that momentary CCs are the way to go.

If being able to specify toggle behavior on the assignment screen is too much of a hassle to implement, I think a great workaround would be a CV plugin that toggles exactly like the Multi Button to CV plugin but is activated immediately (there’s a slight lag using this plugin because it needs to wait to “listen” if the press will be long or double). Maybe a CV Toggle plugin?

[jon]

I got slightly confused reading your post.

@bleo

I recently got that Chocolate MIDI controller and was happy with that for a bit because I could set each button to be a toggle, however, it still ended up not being ideal when changing pedalboards or snapshots because then I was running into situations where the effect it was mapped to was on but the button was toggled off so stomping the first time would do nothing and I would have to press it a second time.

This happened because on the setup that you did (what is common with MIDI controllers) you had only one way communication - from the controller to the MOD device - and not two ways - from the controller to the MOD device and from the MOD device to the controller.
Maybe I got what you mean with the CC toggle wrong (or didn’t understand it at all), but unless you have this bipolar communication, the MIDI controller may always have room to be wrong and require you to push the button twice. Because regardless of what you have in between, if the controller doesn’t receive any information of what is the current state of whatever it is connected it will never be able to understand what is the current state unless you trigger it physically a first time.
That’s why the virtual loopback port that I told before works inside the MOD device. Basically what you are doing with it is to create this bi-directional communication.
If you want that the controller shows you always the accurate current state (even in the first cycle) you will need to setup the controller and the host device in a certain way that they talk with each other (and not only the controller talks to the host and the host listens).

[bleo]

Bi-directional communication simply isn’t an option on many controllers, especially simply MIDI stomp controllers. All I was saying was that with these, if possible setting the stomp to send momentary will be the best bet when pairing with the Mod stuff.

[jon]

ah! Understood it now! A bit like you have on the advanced settings for the device controls? The latching or momentary thing?